My ban (#452)

[Azarael]

I've set a ban, but its length is TBD. He has absolutely no excuse for not having read the rules.

[bOnO]

Yes but if he joined only for OLDZ weekend after a long time, he might have not known that it was a special weekend when rules don't apply...

[Azarael]

He came back after a permanent ban by posting an appeal. If he didn't take the time to read through the rules in fine detail to ensure he'd never be banned again, I don't see why he should be excused. It's what I would have done in his position. The OLDZ / Megafun exception (which I still consider to be BS exactly because it promotes glitching) is listed in the rules.

We can't keep acting as if the rules written on the forum are completely meaningless and nobody is expected to have read them. In this case, he should have, he didn't, he's banned.

[raicoon]

Well, i guess your right Azarael, i should've read them properly.

I joined LDG first time during oldz weekend and did not exactly remember what oldz was - I thought the only difference to normal maps was that there weren't any nitro vehicles. It seems like there was more to it, for example that glitching is only allowed in oldz.. (And not every weekend)

I didn't know that, and because I thought I knew the rules from the time I played on LDG, I didn't really read them. In fact, i should have done that ( Besides, I still don't understand what megafun-race is )

So i can't really complain about a ban here Though it would be nice if it isn't a perma ban

[Azarael]

That's for the others to decide. I personally am not impressed, though.

[bOnO]

I never said that what he did was right and that he doesn't deserve any punishment. I was just pointing out that he came back from a long time without playing and he may have been misled. So don't permaban him, give him 30 days if you want...

[proof]

If I had a vote in this I wouldnt ban him at all. I was present when he glitched and no one really cared much that he actually glitched though many noticed it. In fact in my opinion glitching shouldnt be banable. If there are flaws in the map they should be allowed to be used. For example elfy fixed most of the glitches in Derby (if not all) and now everyone is forced to do the map as it was intended. I myself liked it more when there were still glitches. I am personally strongly against fixing and banning glitching in general, it is simply more fun with the flaws for most of us Racers cause many of the glitches are a challenge to exploit. Aza, you dont play Race at all (except for Unwheel which seems already dead to me), in fact you think Racers are all "noobs", so I dont get why you even care about whats going on there (anti-wait, glitching, etc). Its like if I suddenly cared about anything that happens on BW even though Ive never even been on this server which would be simply pathetic in your eyes.

//edit: Also, where to draw a line between a shortcut and a glitch?

[Azarael]

You only prove my point through what you say. You don't respect the core gameplay of RACE enough not to glitch. Play the damn maps as they were intended or be banned. We shouldn't have to run around after you, patching every single glitch, just because you oppose banning people who are cheating. Respect the damn game by playing it in the way it was intended. If it's not enough fun for you that way, maybe the game isn't for you, or you should put your considerable mapping skills to use in developing maps which are more of a challenge. You'll quickly find that nobody will want to play them, for reasons I'm going to go into below. The times when race was about glitching every single objective, camping at the base all game to shoot benders coming out of the base and then having the nerve to call what you were doing "racing" are over. Long may they remain dead.

I'm adding anti-wait measures because I'm against the carebear situation right now where one person reaches the objective and refuses to complete it to stall out the map to completion. Race on such maps should be competitive and players should not be able to decide for themselves how long to stall out a map for. When good players on Assault stack defense in order to ensure the maximum amount of time is spent playing the map, there's uproar over it, same as there would be if a strong attacking team deliberately refused the objective to subject the other team to the full duration of the map, but when players capable of completing trial maps decide to have a little carebear party at the end and refuse to play competitively, thus guaranteeing the the map's full time will pass before it ends, it's somehow suddenly OK. Admins have even been abusing their power to extend the time on these maps.

As for my opinion on racers, it's been developed over years of playing race and seeing that the better designed the gametype or map becomes, the less the racer playerbase is interested. C&C vs. ONS / CTF is a prime example of this; C&C is accepted despite not being race because it's piss easy, campy and popular, whereas VCTF / ONS actually require skill and thus aren't preferred. If they prefer to play gametypes which are simple and have little depth, avoiding anything skilled, then that's fine, but I reserve the right to call a spade a spade, especially when the vast majority of racers, after years of playing race, struggle with Blazing Scorpions, which has been completed by Assault players. These vehicles are designed for WASD controls with unrealistic physics in order to be easy to control, as they were only one component of Onslaught, in which they were intended to be used. Skilled, actual racers wouldn't touch UT race with a ten-foot pole because of that.

Also, how do you think race survived for years in OLDZ format, where basecamping and glitching to skip the entire track were the only ways to play on most maps? Because it was played by noobs. I don't understand how you can even try to argue this point.

Next time I get hold of the code for race, I'm just going to add a pure checkpoint system and have done with it. It's ridiculous to have version after version of patches and mapfixes when checkpoints will solve it all without the need to rape maps with blocking volumes. Between that and reworking the gate triggers to prevent vehicles from getting near, almost everything will be solved... and then maybe we'll finally see who actually wants to race and who will get butthurt because they can't cheat anymore.

[proof]

You only prove my point through what you say. You don't respect the core gameplay of RACE enough not to glitch. Play the damn maps as they were intended or be banned. We shouldn't have to run around after you, patching every single glitch, just because you oppose banning people who are cheating. Respect the damn game by playing it in the way it was intended. If it's not enough fun for you that way, maybe the game isn't for you, or you should put your considerable mapping skills to use in developing maps which are more of a challenge. You'll quickly find that nobody will want to play them, for reasons I'm going to go into below. The times when race was about glitching every single objective, camping at the base all game to shoot benders coming out of the base and then having the nerve to call what you were doing "racing" are over. Long may they remain dead.

You wouldnt need to run after all the glitchers or patch the flaws if you simply allowed it. Plus you wouldnt lose players every week due to sometimes really ridiculous bans. There are even a couple of major glitches in AS maps I know. Even on retail maps. Are they allowed? Yes. Do you care to fix them? No. So why only apply the glitching rules to AS? And again, Im asking you, where do you draw the line between a shortcut and a glitch? For example if everyone had to play Aztec race as it was intended, everyone would take forever at the last objective to get through the S shaped, narrow brushes near the end. But people simply jump over them. Now in your eyes, this must be glitching, but yet nobody has been banned for it nor has it been fixed.

I'm adding anti-wait measures because I'm against the carebear situation right now where one person reaches the objective and refuses to complete it to stall out the map to completion. Race on such maps should be competitive and players should not be able to decide for themselves how long to stall out a map for. When good players on Assault stack defense in order to ensure the maximum amount of time is spent playing the map, there's uproar over it, same as there would be if a strong attacking team deliberately refused the objective to subject the other team to the full duration of the map, but when players capable of completing trial maps decide to have a little carebear party at the end and refuse to play competitively, thus guaranteeing the the map's full time will pass before it ends, it's somehow suddenly OK. Admins have even been abusing their power to extend the time on these maps.

Its not about refusing to finish it, its about being so kind to wait for others to complete it. Now if you come with your stupid argument its race, ergo its competition... in Race theres not just a winner but also a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. When ppl just finish the last obj on race, there will be just one winner and thats it. THIS is not race. People (including me) usually ask if they should finish when they reach the obj. I myself finish as long as nobody replied or if ppl want me to finish. But if people requesting "wait" why should it be forbidden?
When people stack on defense for AS, its simply not fun, mainly for the attackers, because the goal of AS is to do the objective (and not to farm defenders like some people think). If the defense is stacked, they cant do it. On the other hand, if people dont finish on race, that doesnt mean the rest of the players cant race anymore, they can still do the whole map without any limitation. And admins have extended the time because it has been asked for it. Simple.

As for my opinion on racers, it's been developed over years of playing race and seeing that the better designed the gametype or map becomes, the less the racer playerbase is interested. C&C vs. ONS / CTF is a prime example of this; C&C is accepted despite not being race because it's piss easy, campy and popular, whereas VCTF / ONS actually require skill and thus aren't preferred. If they prefer to play gametypes which are simple and have little depth, avoiding anything skilled, then that's fine, but I reserve the right to call a spade a spade, especially when the vast majority of racers, after years of playing race, struggle with Blazing Scorpions, which has been completed by Assault players. These vehicles are designed for WASD controls with unrealistic physics in order to be easy to control, as they were only one component of Onslaught, in which they were intended to be used. Skilled, actual racers wouldn't touch UT race with a ten-foot pole because of that.

Then let me ask you. Do you want an empty server with perfectly designed and challenging maps? Or do you want a full server with alot of happy players (noobs or pros doesnt matter) and maps that have a few glitches? If you would pick the first option you would lie.
And why do you think racers play race and not Instagib, Tam or something which requires skill? Because they cant compete with skilled players. If they struggle with Blazing, let them struggle, why do you care? At least they play the map. "Skilled actual racers" are in the formula 1.

Also, how do you think race survived for years in OLDZ format, where basecamping and glitching to skip the entire track were the only ways to play on most maps? Because it was played by noobs. I don't understand how you can even try to argue this point.

And even if it was played by noobs, why do you care? You dont even play race. If people are happy, let them play and dont fucking ban them one after another. If youre trying to create a Race server with only skilled and honest players who dont glitch you might just wanna run a 32 slot server with only bots on it.
Besides, I would have paid for the moment when you joined the UTzone race server 8 years ago and told them they are all noobs. You would have been challenged by 50% of the players to a 1v1 and defeated with an ease.

Next time I get hold of the code for race, I'm just going to add a pure checkpoint system and have done with it. It's ridiculous to have version after version of patches and mapfixes when checkpoints will solve it all without the need to rape maps with blocking volumes. Between that and reworking the gate triggers to prevent vehicles from getting near, almost everything will be solved... and then maybe we'll finally see who actually wants to race and who will get butthurt because they can't cheat anymore.

sometimes I feel like being a physicist talking to a theologian about the universe because I have to repeat things again and again which somehow dont wanna go into your head: You dont play race. Why do you care about it so much? If the racers are happy, let them fucking play.
Youre like a father who keeps taking his child away his toys "No you cant have this, no you cant have that. No, thats mine now." until you have a naked child (in this case your server will be naked). Go get some real problems you can work on instead of picking on racers 24/7.

[iZumo]

If I had a vote in this I wouldnt ban him at all. I was present when he glitched and no one really cared much that he actually glitched though many noticed it.

I personally would not ban when someone glitch and people around do not care (generally like glitching the shields on objective (which checkpoints will not solve ). Glitching however is and should in general bannable because most of the time it gets people pissed.

For example if everyone had to play Aztec race as it was intended, everyone would take forever at the last objective to get through the S shaped, narrow brushes near the end.

It's like if you make a straight road from start to end and put a sign in the middle of the road to turn right and fall into lava, making it clear your, the mapper's, intention is to not to go straight towards the objective but melt in lava. Are you going to tell me that going straight is a glitch?

btw. Aza: Also, before speaking about ONS and skill, go and check the current ONS servers with all their super overpowered tanks and levis, lol. There's no skill at all, there is muh camp, muh own you all, last time I checked.