My ban (#452)

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darkelf
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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by darkelf » Sat 18 Jan , 2014 10:35 pm

Your both making valid points yes but in the end.. your both talking about the extremes of conditions vs the typical conditions.

To me anything that gives a player an advantage that drastically ruins gameplay is considered a bannable offense.

The aztec glitch is one to consider banning for(I'll give that to you). However its also the most pointless trial and I can't really feel good about banning someone over it as its a lame waste of time to do it the right way. Which is probably what most of us feel about that one.

There are other shortcuts that do cut off time but ultimately they only shave off maybe a few seconds of gameplay. Like in derby room 3 obj 2 where u can get to the first set movers then just jump the gap instead of falling down and doing the other simple mover area. It only cuts off a few seconds. So to me (I may be wrong) I would consider something like that ok and in good fair fun.

So to recap. I don't want unlimited exploiting allowed. I'm also pretty sure you don't want it either. I played racing back in 2005ish to 2007 it wasn't a pretty site. Maps would be completed within 1-2 min. It would end in rage tears and cries for admin to do something(with admins who could careless). The only reason I found racing enjoyable at the time was being a teenage prick that enjoyed watching others suffer. Its because of people like me that racing died out. If it wasn't for ldg adding a new twist to it and taking the time to make the maps fair it would be a completely dead gametype.

Now as far as the banning for what you call unneeded or to harsh. This is already being addressed atm and hopefully the changes proposed will be in effect soon/made public(they might already been made public/in use.. not sure)

As far as the time extension thing.. I'm totally with aza on this. Not all players want to play an extra 20 min for a trials map.. So yah maybe the majority want the time extension.. Its not fare.. Name one time when you asked for a round of as or regular race map be extended? Timelimit is there for a reason it shouldn't be messed with.

As far as the waiting at obj goes.. Your argument is for waiting for a min or two. What aza is talking about is waiting the remainder of the clock. Nothing wrong with waiting a for a moment or two. But waiting for a whole 10 min is just down right unacceptable. Its not a trials server. Its a race server.

I feel like these past few post should be in a topic of there own.. This thread has been hijacked.
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Azarael
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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by Azarael » Sat 18 Jan , 2014 10:47 pm

@Izumo: I mean standard ONS, not the shit that's played these days. You've already told me about what goes on on Onslaught servers, so I realise that the ONS that is played today is not how it used to be. Assume I mean standard ONS / standard VCTF unless I indicate otherwise.

@darkelf, yes. The idea of time limit volumes was that they could be set to the appropriate time for the map and thus the amount of grace given for other players was constant and not decided by players, who cannot be trusted not to simply wait until the last minute. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that Blazing Scorpions in particular will never have such restrictions.

And now here comes the good stuff.
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:You wouldnt need to run after all the glitchers or patch the flaws if you simply allowed it. Plus you wouldnt lose players every week due to sometimes really ridiculous bans. There are even a couple of major glitches in AS maps I know. Even on retail maps. Are they allowed? Yes. Do you care to fix them? No. So why only apply the glitching rules to AS? And again, Im asking you, where do you draw the line between a shortcut and a glitch? For example if everyone had to play Aztec race as it was intended, everyone would take forever at the last objective to get through the S shaped, narrow brushes near the end. But people simply jump over them. Now in your eyes, this must be glitching, but yet nobody has been banned for it nor has it been fixed.
I'm sorry, this is a racing server. I act in accordance with that principle first and foremost. OLDZ was ditched because it wasn't race, it was camp in base for two rounds. Teamwork benders and single-round RACE were introduced to get rid of those problems. Glitching was removed because glitching isn't racing. If you cut out the whole map via a simple to execute glitch, or if the gametype is only fun for you because you glitch to get advantage over those playing legitimately, it's not for you. If you insist on allowing the players to define what they like, then call the gametype Glitch and at least it's an accurate description, but I've always worked under the assumption that racing means a race to the objective upon the track the mapper laid out and intended for you to play.

As for AS maps, glitches on AS maps except stock maps are fixed. The reason the glitches on stock maps aren't fixed is because foreign Assault players playing standard maps expect the map to be that way and will defend it as if it is that way. Unless the glitch breaks the map in terms of being an utterly obvious choice, rather than an additional route, I don't see the problem. The glitches on Fallen City 1st and 2nd objs don't break the map, for example, and give scant advantage.
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:Its not about refusing to finish it, its about being so kind to wait for others to complete it. Now if you come with your stupid argument its race, ergo its competition... in Race theres not just a winner but also a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. When ppl just finish the last obj on race, there will be just one winner and thats it. THIS is not race. People (including me) usually ask if they should finish when they reach the obj. I myself finish as long as nobody replied or if ppl want me to finish. But if people requesting "wait" why should it be forbidden?
When people stack on defense for AS, its simply not fun, mainly for the attackers, because the goal of AS is to do the objective (and not to farm defenders like some people think). If the defense is stacked, they cant do it. On the other hand, if people dont finish on race, that doesnt mean the rest of the players cant race anymore, they can still do the whole map without any limitation. And admins have extended the time because it has been asked for it. Simple.
Nice jab at me with the "farm defenders." Stationary Shield Gun is back, you missed that bus a long time ago, but it fits in very well with the rest of your argument that you propose a vision of Assault in which one team puts up shields and runs to the objective while the other team tries to kill them, instead of players actually having to clear an objective before they can take it. I understand that a lot of Assault maps have shit design (because of the low number of maps available, a lot of them are shit), but if I get accused of "farming defenders" when I'm reducing the resistance at the objective (again, on a properly designed map and not an attrition-fest), then I'm inclined to just sit here and laugh.

If server time is going to be used, the trial maps should be played competitively as all other maps are. If players really can't buck up, make a separate server for them to practice trial maps on. While you may have your own code for waiting, I've seen plenty of times when players will say "fin?", someone will reply in the affirmative, but unless the response is absolutely overwhelming the player will wait until the timer reaches 0. Meanwhile if anyone has so much as the gall to make a move to finish the last objective, they will either be ninja'd by the player who got there first or harassed and ostracised by the players who waited, thinking that they are entitled to stop everyone else from doing obj as long as they got there first. Both cases are utterly undesirable. If it comes to the point where I'm actually forced to join and finish maps because other players won't, I will - it's well within the ability of anyone with an attention span of more than five seconds.

If I stack defense on a map, the other players are still able to play just fine. Admittedly, they're going to be slowed down, but nobody is preventing them from playing. Consider that some people may consider refusal to finish a trial map extending their own "torture", which is just as bad as being farmed when you can't do the map.

The last time I saw an administrator time extension on a trial map, no players had asked them to, 3 players had asked them not to and they did it anyway. It simply is not for admins to extend time under any circumstances, regardless of whether the clientele who choose to talk request it or not. The allotted time is there, other people want to play other maps and might even not be joining because of the current map.
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:Then let me ask you. Do you want an empty server with perfectly designed and challenging maps? Or do you want a full server with alot of happy players (noobs or pros doesnt matter) and maps that have a few glitches? If you would pick the first option you would lie.
And why do you think racers play race and not Instagib, Tam or something which requires skill? Because they cant compete with skilled players. If they struggle with Blazing, let them struggle, why do you care? At least they play the map. "Skilled actual racers" are in the formula 1.
You criticised me because I think racers are, on the whole, unskilled, or "noobs" as you put it. I merely justified that criticism. Further discussion about the skill of racers is of no interest to me, so don't act as if anything I said was anything more than a justification.

I'm well aware of what will happen if racing were to be made good, with "good" defined as a challenging gametype with a high skillcap. The current playerbase would not be interested. Why do you think I gave up all attempts to figure out a way to do that?
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:And even if it was played by noobs, why do you care? You dont even play race. If people are happy, let them play and dont fucking ban them one after another. If youre trying to create a Race server with only skilled and honest players who dont glitch you might just wanna run a 32 slot server with only bots on it.
Besides, I would have paid for the moment when you joined the UTzone race server 8 years ago and told them they are all noobs. You would have been challenged by 50% of the players to a 1v1 and defeated with ease.
You weren't much to shout about yourself all those years back (or you'd never have flown under Cartoon's banner) but that may as well be so. It's complete conjecture though. Be mindful that when I say "racer" I refer to people who play race and ONLY race, so if you think I'd have waltzed into a server of people who play mixed gametypes and called them all noobs, you're tragically deluded. I lost interest in being any better than I am now in standard a long time ago, which is why I don't play anywhere else but LDG and why I will not improve beyond the meagre level of "skill" I maintain now in NW, so if you're attempting to irk me by pointing out that I suck now, you're... 4 years too late.

As for "I don't even play race", that's not strictly true; I merely don't play it lately. When Blazing Scorps was first released, I played it whenever it was up, grateful for a race map which actually held some depth and interest. Race may well bore the hell out of me, but I've not only the urge to make it actual racing and improve its flow (as I feel is my duty, since I was appointed administrator of an AS/Race server) but also to patch all the exploits out of it, regardless of what you and a vocal minority might think about what they do to the gameplay. Again, I ask you: Put up or shut up. If you feel that the mechanics of glitches are required to add depth to race, make some actual challenging maps where the same rules apply to all and it's clear what you're intended to do. I'm more than happy to see the gametype improved without resorting to cheats, exploits and glitches. Otherwise, accept that I and others will patch maps according to how they were designed to make the gametype play as it was intended, not how it's been bastardized after years. Saying "you don't play race and we do, therefore everything we do and say is right" is, to be frank, irelevant drivel. At its core, this is about how much can be done to increase the depth and interest of race without causing weak players to leave the server. It's exactly the same distinction which is behind the phrase "Actions, not words." Talk is cheap. Very few people will go very far in terms of actions to oppose a cause which they'll big up in words to be the end of the world. LDG is no different.

I don't expect to be able to change the nature of people - it's in human nature to use any advantage we can, regardless of whether doing so makes for level playing field, is the most interesing thing to do or any other factor. It's why some people choose to run aimbots. But while you cannot control someone else's mind, you can limit their actions, and this is exactly what patching glitches does. It doesn't matter how much you want to do something if you can't do it, and until some actual proof is shown to me that the LDG Apocalypse will be caused by preventing players from using exploits (in this, you are saying flat out that the gametype is not worth playing unless you can exploit it), then I will continue on the current course.

I won't answer the last bit because it's yet another stupid insult. I've already given the reasons why I choose to work on race beforehand. You need to understand that trying to defend cheating because "muh fun, muh heroism, i got the objective and my name is in lights" is an insult to the gametype, because you're suggesting that people are only interested in the gametype when they can cheat. Given that there are maps which are not exploitable and are still played (a majority, actually) it's clear that this is only true for YOU - and if it is, you can just deal with it, as far as I care.

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by iRobot » Sat 18 Jan , 2014 11:16 pm

BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:If I had a vote in this I wouldnt ban him at all. I was present when he glitched and no one really cared much that he actually glitched though many noticed it. In fact in my opinion glitching shouldnt be banable. If there are flaws in the map they should be allowed to be used. For example elfy fixed most of the glitches in Derby (if not all) and now everyone is forced to do the map as it was intended. I myself liked it more when there were still glitches. I am personally strongly against fixing and banning glitching in general, it is simply more fun with the flaws for most of us Racers cause many of the glitches are a challenge to exploit. Aza, you dont play Race at all (except for Unwheel which seems already dead to me), in fact you think Racers are all "noobs", so I dont get why you even care about whats going on there (anti-wait, glitching, etc). Its like if I suddenly cared about anything that happens on BW even though Ive never even been on this server which would be simply pathetic in your eyes.

//edit: Also, where to draw a line between a shortcut and a glitch?
Literally saying the maps are more fun when broken.

Opinion discounted, no further reply needed.

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by proof » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 12:13 am

@Izumo: okay, maybe not in general, but you can't blame the players for the one or the other moment when they glitch. Finding new glitches is always interesting and a cool task, at least from my point of view. Also, some of the glitches are very challenging (like the one on Derby to skip the maze) which require some time to master. And most of the time people dont really care about someone else glitching anyway.

@darkelf: I dont think the aztec shortcut should be considered a glitch cause everybody can do it and actually does it, too. But my point is, there will always be shortcuts that give you a bigger time advantage than some glitches. For example Im pretty sure the aztec shortcut gives you a bigger time advantage than the glitch on Derbys 1st room where you could just jump on the first ramp to the left or Derbys 2nd room where you can skip the bio/slime room and the first corner by just jumping down on the left before this slime room. Aztec is seen as a shortcut, the others were glitches. I dont see continuity here. Its like up to the admins mood to decide which ones a glitch and which is a shortcut.

@Aza: I just looked it over cause most of it sounded to me like politian talk where you just stop listening after a while, but Id like to say a few things:
- What about the glitches on Junkyard? Especially the very first objective where you can simply hop on the roof, and use the jumppad to fly to the powercore. Thats a huge advantage, yet its allowed. On the contrary some of the "glitches" that gave you only a "scant advantage" in race were banable.
- Assault maps should be played that way to finish the map as fast as possible. If that means using the shield on some objectives then yes, thats how it should be done since the shieldgun is there for a reason. Besides, in 99% of the cases you will never completly clear the defenders spot because the defenders always spawn WAY closer to the obj than the attackers. The Objective is the objective, not the defenders.
- Maybe this time extension happened. But I very often see people asking for another few minutes on Blazing so sometimes a time extension has its reason.
- Paß and Markus who you obviously hate from head to toe and me for example liked some of the old maps more with glitches. I can control myself and play the maps in a "normal" way unless its OLDZ weekend, they sometimes tend to glitch. But I think most players on the race server dont really care if there are glitches or not like ldgs racer #1. He just plays for the fun.
- I dont think the people waiting at the obj want to "torture" the other players lol Assuming that is just amusing me.

@Robot: Some of them are and thats not just my opinion.
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Azarael
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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by Azarael » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 12:19 am

Difference between glitch and shortcut: a glitch requires some actual exploitation or cheating, such as Pyra-b2 2nd, dodging against the mover to pass through it. A shortcut is perfectly accomplishable without any kind of cheat. Both may be blocked, only glitching will be banned for unless there's another rule in play(such as "only go for the current objective").

- Junkyard 1st isn't a glitch. I defy anyone to prove that it is. You can get onto that roof in many ways, all of which have a time penalty and all of which are visible to the defense and can be countered accordingly.
- Stationary Shield Gun makes all of this moot.
- A couple of people don't speak for the whole server. It's admin interference in the game and it wouldn't be permitted on Assault maps.
- I don't "hate" Paß and Markus, I merely don't like that they violate server rules. Not one of them has tried, as you have, to actually change the state of affairs. They both simply glitch(ed).
- Didn't say they did. You evidently skimmed past an important part!

Anyway, if my posts are going to be skimmed through and dismissed as "politician talk", I won't bother wasting my time explaining anything more. Perhaps you might understand that you're on a forum and posts are what a forum is for.

If anyone wants to venture an opinion as to the ban length in question, you may now do so.

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by iRobot » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 1:01 am

BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:@Robot: Some of them are and thats not just my opinion.
Who else's opinion is it? I see nobody else championing the glitch=pro cause.

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by Fallen » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 1:04 am

iRobot wrote:
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:@Robot: Some of them are and thats not just my opinion.
Who else's opinion is it? I see nobody else championing the glitch=pro cause.

<-- here is one :D

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by iRobot » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 1:05 am

Fallen wrote:
iRobot wrote:
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:@Robot: Some of them are and thats not just my opinion.
Who else's opinion is it? I see nobody else championing the glitch=pro cause.

<-- here is one :D
Someone who quits during RACE has no weight on the discussion about glitching in RACE. I'm talking about the RACE players who are apparently against all the changes.

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by Fallen » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 1:10 am

<-- here is one :D[/quote]

Someone who quits during RACE has no weight on the discussion about glitching in RACE. I'm talking about the RACE players who are apparently against all the changes.[/quote]

ah I didn't read all of it I thought glitching in general

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Re: My ban (#452)

Post by darkelf » Sun 19 Jan , 2014 1:45 am

After reading all the post I can find about racioons history.. I have found something interesting and should be taken into account.

http://www.ldg-gaming.eu/viewtopic.php? ... coon#p9017

Convo between gizmo and racioon. With racioon stating and I qoute "I've already read them, and i know them better than other players in server" Referring to server rules.

So this being classified as glitching and this being his first offense in this category. The proper ban stage should be 1 day. Unless I missed any priory violations of this category from him.
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