Permabanned for Sexism this time - A Hamish goodbye message

[iRobot]

Actually, race discrimination, class discrimination and sex/gender discrimination are not treated on a hierarchical basis, they are just articulated. Sexism/homophobia is not a lesser offence than racism.

Strongly disagree here. Sexism, and to a lesser extent, homophobia, are often used in social media/comedy as a driving force for humour/conversation. The same is rarely, if ever, said for racism except for obscure black comedies.

I wonder where we'll be in ten or twenty years.

Everything will either swing to being more acceptable and open minded, or we'll lean towards being completely pacified by the governments in all media (See: China).

Hoping for the former.

Also still waiting for that BW release, of course

[SASHamish]

Interesting discussion. It appears Lt.Hamish is quite a hot topic.

A question for the admins, I've read on some posts that people that have been permabanned are allowed back to play if they buy a new copy of UT2004? Is this correct?

[Azarael]

@Hamish: Nope. That held in cases where a player was banned in the old UTAN system for hacking.

@iRobot: If racism is bad, why is sexism OK? Answer: Society's attitude to it, which may not necessarily be respectful of the true damage caused, and in the case of racism, once wasn't. My point was that I expect attitudes to sexism to harden over time, especially with the rise of egalitarianism and feminism.

[SASHamish]

@Hamish: Nope. That held in cases where a player was banned in the old UTAN system for hacking.

@iRobot: If racism is bad, why is sexism OK? Answer: Society's attitude to it, which may not necessarily be respectful of the true damage caused, and in the case of racism, once wasn't. My point was that I expect attitudes to sexism to harden over time, especially with the rise of egalitarianism and feminism.

So there's no coming back from a permaban?

Can I ask why I can't just be muted please? My previous ban was a straight to 30day ban and I have seen other's get muted for comments they make rather than receiving a ban.

[Azarael]

This topic is still rolling. No decision has been made yet.

[SASHamish]

This topic is still rolling. No decision has been made yet.

Thanks.

I'll attend counselling/rage management classes or whatever it may be. I think all in all I'm a good player and I add objectiveness to the game, it's just sometimes my
comments get out of hand as I use UT as an escape for long days on base, nonetheless I will cease doing this.

Thanks

[Azarael]

Split mute-related discussion to Racing / Assault forum (there's no 2k4 general forum).

[iZumo]

I strongly disagree with sexism and especially homophobia being the same level of offence as racism at all. It's all about community reception:

Racism is clear: n-word or similar stuff and you get banned. Pretty much end of story.

Sexism: I've modified rules to make this a bit more clear. First targeted: Insults bannable by the insult rule and with sexual content ... that's an obvious ban. But that's not what Hamish was doing from what I've seen. He was rather trying to get Eify's attention by trollishly making propositions and he didn't know when to stop. Same thing would be with flirting etc. . It's OK on its own but it becomes harrassment if you don't know when to stop - which is something that happened here. If you don't stop when you're told to or if you don't get any reply after numerous attempts then you can deduce the other person doesn't like it. I think that could be deduced here (afterall there was 30-day ban first). Although I myself would warn more explicitly first the ban is perfectly in order (there were a few misunderstandings betweeen admins (me & Eify) that's why the ban was delayed). Anyway to conclude the "severity" of such in general, it's individual. Some would not care, some would reply, some would not like it ... who knows. That's something I wanted to clear in the rule for sexism. If the other person has no problem with it then no need to intervene there.

Now towards general sexism - well it's usually men having sarcastic jokes. Don't see a problem here as long as everyone around is fine with that. The boobs sentinel quote was removed because not everyone around was fine with that. And of course people around have to be somehow aware of that. It wasn't that we would suddenly start caring about sexism more or such. It's just that we weren't solving it before.

Homophobia: I've never seen someone getting banned for that on any server / forum I've ever been to when it comes to usage like to sum up misfortune or to tell someone he's stupid. I myself don't see a problem in here either. And until Aza came up with that recently in another topic I've never seen complaints on that. I even added "fag" to sentinel (which actually comes from Turntable Faghead the way Kimi called Turntable Godhead, originally there was "tg" but that means "stfu" in French) and nobody has said anything. If I were to compare it to other words that are used here on LDG I'd see as saying fag to homosexual is like saying goy to someone who's a Jew (tried to point that out other topic). Banning / muting for both of these would simply be exaggeration. Besides other words would kick-in sooner or later if that was on the loose.

Of course, same with sexism, targeting someone who's a homosexual and harrassing him with "fag" alone or combined with insults - that's of course bannable.

[Azarael]

Argument can be directly applied to racism. The crux of your argument, however expounded upon, is that racism is bad because the community treats it as bad irrespective of whether homophobia and sexism are the exact same shit. If two people want to address each other as "nigga" and neither has a problem with it, then we've no reason to get involved, but we still do.

[iZumo]

The argument can be applied to anything. It's primarilly about reception. You get jailed if you're racist (or in Czech for propagating Nazism as well), you don't get jailed for sexism, homophobia etc. (unless you're stalking). It's something that we inherit from the world around us.