Standard weapon balance

[iRobot]

I strongly feel it detracts from peoples playing experience when they use x weapon on another server, come here and find out they're shooting water pistols.

A few tweaks was ok, but nearly every weapon has some kind of modification now and it's getting daft. Just give rockets a fuel bar and you have a full house. Minigun is rarely used already, I don't know where the idea of spam is coming from.

Not to mention a lot of the weapon lockers on maps are designed around how the weapons were, not how they are now. Which means some maps are just too easy / too hard.

[iZumo]

Most of the weapons have slighter differences, Pulse is using it's own model, so the greater changes on PRI are fine. The other one with significant changes is becoming Minigun, but we can always solve that with custom model / skin. AR also has changes "above tweaks" (which I would personally revert).

Numerous issues are unique to Assault only (shield run for example).

[iRobot]

Custom models or not, it's still shoehorning people into using weapons they might not want to. If noobs are gonna noob and use minigun, I don't see an issue.

But by nerfing the ammo to ridiuclously low amounts and reducing damage also, you're basically just removing the minigun from the game.

[Azarael]

Agreed.

The tweaks that I made, I felt were necessary. UT2004 is criticised for being a hitscan-centric game, it was never balanced. The changes I made were indicated in an obvious manner to players (GES speed, Pulse speed, Flak damage loss after the chunks fall from the air, Minigun spread) with the exception of Minigun range attenuation. I felt the Minigun was fine as I left it, the dual ARs were OP, the Pulse was/is absolutely fine and the GES pri is still underpowered. I hate to throw this accusation, as I've had it leveled at myself, but the AR ammo nerf and the Minigun destruction feel like you're nerfing for yourself, and I would not even bother to use the Minigun anymore even before this changelog.

Additionally, Shock is a very dangerous weapon to mess with. I wouldn't go as far to say that I think it's balanced (it is, after all, a strongly desired weapon in competitive games and out) but if you adjust it you risk alienating a significant number of players. That's why I've never supported any modification which would go beyond the cosmetic for the Shock Rifle.

We (iRobot and I) may differ in that I think that weapons which are noob-friendly should be adjusted so they are not so, and that weapons / fires which are underpowered should be buffed to improve the diversity and game experience, but if a nerf results in a weapon becoming a piece of shit at all skill levels, and not just noob skill, then it's the wrong way to go.

[bOnO]

For the minigun, I remember we talked about a "overheat system" months (years?) ago, if you really want to modify something... it can be a solution. Even if I'm fine with the weapons as they currently are...

[Azarael]

I considered overheat, but I concluded it would be far too radical a change for the stock gameplay to add a fire limiter to a weapon. UT2004's weapons are defined by no reloading, no recoil, no inaccuracy and no fire limiters. As far as I know, in top tier games the Minigun isn't considered OP.

[iRobot]

I considered overheat, but I concluded it would be far too radical a change for the stock gameplay to add a fire limiter to a weapon. UT2004's weapons are defined by no reloading, no recoil, no inaccuracy and no fire limiters. As far as I know, in top tier games the Minigun isn't considered OP.

O really? You've said on countless times the minigun is the best weapon in the game and overused by top players, in its stock form.

Also by definition, if something isn't OP at highest level, it's not OP at any level.

[iZumo]

Minigun is being changed / nerfed in a manner not to be used as a general purpose spam weapon that it used to be. Obviously if a noob with a Minigun is more effective in most cases than another noob with different weapon, other noobs will go and use Minigun just for that (even if they would be prefering a different weapon). This is speaking of a noob vs. noob combat (or players with lower skill), which has to be taken care of too, otherwise the game will turn into mid-range spam. Skilled TAM players use minigun to finish enemy off (such function is fully kept) or spam ways to make sure low hp players won't go there (which is does not affect us), important is that the player is low hp (discussed this in UTAN). This is why I don't think that with the current nerfing, the minigun becomes shit on all skill levels. It just forbids you to use it in other manners than to finish off low HP people (i.e range atten on secondary fire, lower ammo, and penalty vs. high HP players).

The problem with shock rifle is oftenly barely avoidable stombo spam in numerous maps that prevents you from entering, which is why I supposed to give it extra cooloff as a penalty.

Also by definition, if something isn't OP at highest level, it's not OP at any level.

It depends if you consider average hitrate by the weapon or not (i.e if it is not considered, then yes).

[Azarael]

I considered overheat, but I concluded it would be far too radical a change for the stock gameplay to add a fire limiter to a weapon. UT2004's weapons are defined by no reloading, no recoil, no inaccuracy and no fire limiters. As far as I know, in top tier games the Minigun isn't considered OP.

O really? You've said on countless times the minigun is the best weapon in the game and overused by top players, in its stock form.

Also by definition, if something isn't OP at highest level, it's not OP at any level.

Quote me on the first.

On the second, that's bullshit and can be proven so with an extreme and quick example:

Take the Sniper Rifle, make it hit anything in a cone of variable size and reduce the damage to 40.

If both default and new Sniper are available, new Sniper is UP at high levels and OP at low levels of skill, because the change in the weapon's hit mechanics have lowered its skillcap but improved its hit rate significantly for noobs. This is the definition of stock Minigun.

[iRobot]

You seem to be making the changes around;

Skilled [TAM] players use minigun to finish enemy off

I've omitted TAM since it's generally skilled players who would have the game sense to do the above, not just limited to TAM.

But I don't feel we have that player base on the Race/Assault server.