AS-GrandCanyon2k4 Rebalanced Version by Calum

[KimiRäikkönen]

so pls stop complaining about pointless stuff, if you dont know shit about balancing and the design and flow of good as maps, i do

calum

there claum u said it, stop complaining about pointless stuff, so stop complaining about fixing legowars, its a FUN map not about balancing just spam and get points, anyway lets stick to the point.

design? adding some meshes to the map is design? i thought this was a ut '99 map (correct me if im wrong it looks like it anyway) the first 'fixes' you made by adding some static meshes to the hall of the lift, and the jumppads were ok. But the last objective with the random meshes doesnt fit to the map, correct me if im wrong again but it looks like a vehicle cant get past any of those, and if the defenders still have the goliath its even HARDER to get to the last obj.

[calum]

@ kimi
about legowars: there lies the difference, im not complaining about pointless stuff, im complaining about the major design and balance flaw in the last area, of course its a fun map, and a "noob map" like you said multiple times, of course it is, its obvious, you just need to look at it and compare it to holocorp and subrosa then you see its a noob map
pierons house is a noob map too, but as opposed to legowars last area it is somewhat balanced by now and can appropriately be rushed by a stacked team in several minutes without problems
legowars has gotten better over the last versions, basically all areas are kinda balanced EXCEPT for the last one, even a totally stacked team usually has problems doing that obj and strokes around for several minutes or the round end cause its so badly balanced and easily defendable

the point here is, it is a noob map yes, but it is a map, and so WHY cant it be a BALANCED noob map, its still a noob map all over the place even when its nicely balanced so that it is completable without problems

@ your annotations about grandcanyon, you didnt even read my full posts, re-read them and you see its wrong what you said ._.

[Azarael]

The reason it's so easily defendable is because vehicles in Assault are shit. The whole point of vehicles for noobs, as you know, is because vehicles are almost impossible to be bad with unless you just don't even try. Skill doesn't matter in an area with so many vehicles and turrets, so it sucks hardc0r3.

[shadownoon]

The reason it's so easily defendable is because vehicles in Assault are shit. The whole point of vehicles for noobs, as you know, is because vehicles are almost impossible to be bad with unless you just don't even try. Skill doesn't matter in an area with so many vehicles and turrets, so it sucks hardc0r3.

Easy fix: CREATE AND ADD RANDOM LEGO VEHICLES. np.

or am i just TROLLing?

[Conqueror]

most popular map in Assault in the history of UT2004 - if something isn't broken, don't try and fix it.

yes here we go, the map is broken and has some major flaws, starting with the constant mini, big empty elevator hall inviting you to spam with mini like a mad man, continuing with the hp of the house generators, the cave and of course the last obj..
it seems in all these years no one really tryed to change this and improve the map (apart from the doorglitch-fixes), ok a while ago dejavu did, but his attempt was horrible, with a lot of random and stupid changes

im playing ut2k4 since its release and i played this map countless times ever since, more than most other guys here, i know it like no one else, and im perfectly sure that my changes are improving the map in terms of balance, gameplay and flow, if someone like you conqueror cant realize the simple effectiveness of some added boxes in the hall and changed weapon loadouts than its just sad

all the major standard map players, and guys that know their shit when it comes to assault agree with me that this version is clearly better, aza, socio, boz, etc

so pls stop complaining about pointless stuff, if you dont know shit about balancing and the design and flow of good as maps, i do

calum

Your arrogance pervades. I don't think you know the map any better than anyone else - we've all looked at it in UED and seen the composition of it, so trying to place yourself on a higher level than anyone else is a lie. Your changed weapon loadouts make no improvement whatsoever, and as such should be discounted. 'All the guys that know their shit about assault' - shut up. You're selecting people who agree with you and ignoring those that don't - and Azarael's reasons for agreeing with you aren't due to the quality of your changes. You might not like me, but you cannot say I don't 'know my assault.' I've tested more maps and found more exploits than you have made and thought of, respectively. I don't deem you to be stupid, just misguided on this. You are the one who clearly doesn't know shit. There have been other fixes in Canyon to deal with actually balancing issues - Leecher fixed the cave objective and has posted it in the past, for a start. The reason the map was so popular is that it was well constructed. Yours isn't. I'm not insulting the map just to do it - it just has serious problems.

Kimi has taken criticism of Legowars on board and has improved his fixes. You need to learn to do the same.

[calum]

my weapon loadouts clearly make improvement in reducing the mini spam and balancing, but the main problem of oyu is, you havent even played the map, at least not more than some mins, changes like this take some time until you can form a educated opinion, how can i take you seriously with your complaints if you havent even played the map a few times for 2 full rounds

and i cited people like aza and socio because: - they have way more standard assault experience than you, are better assault players than you, know how to make maps, MADE maps, BALANCED their maps, their opinion is clearly more valuable and important than yours, esp if you are too ignorant to see the improvements of some of my changes

You might not like me, but you cannot say I don't 'know my assault

i generally dont like race noobs and players who think they know something and complain about changes in maps that are obviously better than before
if you dont see the point of some of my changes than you dont know shit, if you also fit into one of those categorys, the 2nd pretty likely then yes i dont like you

and since im not ignorant or the god almighty, i accept criticism, you didnt offer any DETAILED criticism, supported by facts and with thoughts behind it, great job for being just another one of the mindless douchebags that make up the majority of the ldgs thoughtlessly-complaining population

so you are free to give any helpfull feedback if you "know your assault" as you say, if not keep your unsupported and thoughtless complaints and opinions to yourself

[Conqueror]

my weapon loadouts clearly make improvement in reducing the mini spam and balancing, but the main problem of oyu is, you havent even played the map, at least not more than some mins, changes like this take some time until you can form a educated opinion, how can i take you seriously with your complaints if you havent even played the map a few times for 2 full rounds

and i cited people like aza and socio because: - they have way more standard assault experience than you, are better assault players than you, know how to make maps, MADE maps, BALANCED their maps, their opinion is clearly more valuable and important than yours, esp if you are too ignorant to see the improvements of some of my changes

You might not like me, but you cannot say I don't 'know my assault

i generally dont like race noobs and players who think they know something and complain about changes in maps that are obviously better than before
if you dont see the point of some of my changes than you dont know shit, if you also fit into one of those categorys, the 2nd pretty likely then yes i dont like you

and since im not ignorant or the god almighty, i accept criticism, you didnt offer any DETAILED criticism, supported by facts and with thoughts behind it, great job for being just another one of the mindless douchebags that make up for the majority of the ldgs thoughtlessly-complaining population

so you are free to give any helpfull feedback if you "know your assault" as you say, if not keep your unsupported and thoughtless complaints and opinions to yourself

Calling me a 'race-noob' just shows you really don't know me. Call them better players if you like, I don't agree, but I'll let you have your opinion. If you want constructive feedback, then perhaps you ought to not become automatically incredibly defensive when someone makes a criticism.

- The 4th and 5th objectives suffer from poor weapon choices - adding the LG to the armoury of the defenders doesn't seem to be a good idea - the odds are stacked in their favour anyway. I don't think the weapon is really necessary on either attack or defence. Better to give the attackers rocket launchers and the defenders flak - it's the better balance for all involved.

- The boxes you have added make little difference, and can impede attackers from getting to the objective. All it offers is high ground for defenders.

- The minigun spam wasn't ideal, and perhaps instead of that you could consider shock rifles - not saying it would work, but it might be better.

- The Cave objective would be better with 2 tanks with a 1 minute respawn as opposed to just the one. You have to give defenders a chance, which they don't really have at the moment. That objective needs to be the seperator which splits the good teams from the poor.

- The end objective and the clutter there - I don't think its necessary. Just remove the Goliath. That's all it really needed. Perhaps add a couple of scorpions up with the hellbenders on the higher ground. Also consider giving the Defenders a better selection of weapons straight from the locker.

[calum]

my weapon loadouts clearly make improvement in reducing the mini spam and balancing, but the main problem of oyu is, you havent even played the map, at least not more than some mins, changes like this take some time until you can form a educated opinion, how can i take you seriously with your complaints if you havent even played the map a few times for 2 full rounds

and i cited people like aza and socio because: - they have way more standard assault experience than you, are better assault players than you, know how to make maps, MADE maps, BALANCED their maps, their opinion is clearly more valuable and important than yours, esp if you are too ignorant to see the improvements of some of my changes

You might not like me, but you cannot say I don't 'know my assault

i generally dont like race noobs and players who think they know something and complain about changes in maps that are obviously better than before
if you dont see the point of some of my changes than you dont know shit, if you also fit into one of those categorys, the 2nd pretty likely then yes i dont like you

and since im not ignorant or the god almighty, i accept criticism, you didnt offer any DETAILED criticism, supported by facts and with thoughts behind it, great job for being just another one of the mindless douchebags that make up for the majority of the ldgs thoughtlessly-complaining population

so you are free to give any helpfull feedback if you "know your assault" as you say, if not keep your unsupported and thoughtless complaints and opinions to yourself

Calling me a 'race-noob' just shows you really don't know me. Call them better players if you like, I don't agree, but I'll let you have your opinion. If you want constructive feedback, then perhaps you ought to not become automatically incredibly defensive when someone makes a criticism.

- The 4th and 5th objectives suffer from poor weapon choices - adding the LG to the armoury of the defenders doesn't seem to be a good idea - the odds are stacked in their favour anyway. I don't think the weapon is really necessary on either attack or defence. Better to give the attackers rocket launchers and the defenders flak - it's the better balance for all involved.

itf by 4th and 5th obj you mean the first area until the door opens, its not even in the weapon locker its where the hp is, so theres a delay, most guys dont take it anyway, also its not overpowered there

- The boxes you have added make little difference, and can impede attackers from getting to the objective. All it offers is high ground for defenders.

yes they make little difference, and exactly that little difference makes it better, it provides cover for attackers, movement possibibilities and allows the lg to be placed cause its not an open shooting range anymore

- The minigun spam wasn't ideal, and perhaps instead of that you could consider shock rifles - not saying it would work, but it might be better.

shockrifle is added only sparsely and without killing the balance

- The Cave objective would be better with 2 tanks with a 1 minute respawn as opposed to just the one. You have to give defenders a chance, which they don't really have at the moment. That objective needs to be the seperator which splits the good teams from the poor.

that was in dejavus version and it was pretty retarded since 1min tank spawn was way too much, and if a good driver is in a tank 1 alone can pretty much defend the obj, we have to see how my idea with 1 tank, 3o sec resp and 900 hp works when the map has been played a bit more, its on only for 1-2 days
"That objective needs to be the seperator which splits the good teams from the poor." it shouldnt be the major chokepoint of the map anymore, its pretty lame anyway


- The end objective and the clutter there - I don't think its necessary. Just remove the Goliath. That's all it really needed. Perhaps add a couple of scorpions up with the hellbenders on the higher ground. Also consider giving the Defenders a better selection of weapons straight from the locker.

the main problem was the very long way to drive for attackers, it feels like a goddamn race map sometimes, and even without a goliath this obj is easily defendable cause of the long way to obj and the close defender spawn, i pretty much changed the obj to a 2nd "reach the lift" obj with closer spawns and it works quite fine, only the weapon loadout for defenders could be changed a bit i guess

[iZumo]

Well the boxes look horribly on the last obj :p

[shadownoon]

Perhaps, in the big room with the now added boxes, you could add a separate -more alternate route. So the defenders can keep the high ground with the boxes still serving their purpose, but also forcing defenders to spread out thinner in order to defend from this "alternate route" that i've suggested.

For example, on the first objective, it is possible to unlock an alternate route that isn't necessarily a huge difference, it just gives the defenders more than one place to focus on.

I think that in my opinion, the weapons should stay as they are right now, flak vs rocketlauncher was balanced but it's just a completely cancelled out choice of weaponry. They are both as strong as eachother, so if both teams are evenly matched, it turns into spam and nobody gets anywhere unless they are lucky so i think you should keep the weapon choice you have now (in the hall of spam).

Also, scorps on the high ground sound like a very good idea and yes, the goliath at the end should be removed. But as far as adding another goliath to the caves go? I'm not sure it's a great idea. Maybe you could add some kind of turret to replace the lost goliath? Something powerful that doesn't unbalance things, that doesn't respawn and is sufficient enough to be a good replacement for the lost tank.

Apart from what i've said, the only problem i'd see with it is just that the map seems way too big -there's so much wasted space, i mean there's practically a forest on the lower ground after the cave obj, a forest that is almost never used. Compare this version to Aza's version and you'll notice Aza has not wasted huge amounts of space.

Calum, i understand you've said you only value opinions from people who are experience and i know that i'm not particularly experienced but consider this opinion, the perspective of more average players.